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	<title>Comments on: How Much Do Drivers Pay for a Quicker Commute?</title>
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	<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/</link>
	<description>News &#38; Views for a Sustainable Northwest</description>
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		<title>By: Prefer Not To Say</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11658</link>
		<dc:creator>Prefer Not To Say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please forgive the typos above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please forgive the typos above.</p>
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		<title>By: Prefer Not To Say</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11657</link>
		<dc:creator>Prefer Not To Say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In looking at the methodology here, I wonder if there is a significant concern that should play a larger role in your future analyses - the perception of the driver. 

This is essentially a debate over stated preferenece versus revealed preference. You have done some analyis of the revealed prefernce but you don&#039;t really have the stated preference. You have analysis of an assumed preference on behalf of the planners. Additionally, the perception of the driver could provide inroads into other confounding factors:
 - Do the drivers have an estimation of how much time the HOT lane would save them?
 - Do they have an estimation of how much time they would have to stay in their lane if they did not avail themselves of the HOT?
 - What are their thoughts on the economy? 

I think the last one is another issues you may want to explore in future analyses. You said it yourself - drove less when the country went into recession. Isn&#039;t it possible that right now, as people hear more stories about slow and steady recovery that their preference may change? I think the idea that the use of HOT is a function of the perception of the driver overall versus a function of the driver&#039;s perception of traffic has larger implications to future policy development. 

All in all though, a well-done analysis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In looking at the methodology here, I wonder if there is a significant concern that should play a larger role in your future analyses &#8211; the perception of the driver. </p>
<p>This is essentially a debate over stated preferenece versus revealed preference. You have done some analyis of the revealed prefernce but you don&#8217;t really have the stated preference. You have analysis of an assumed preference on behalf of the planners. Additionally, the perception of the driver could provide inroads into other confounding factors:<br />
 &#8211; Do the drivers have an estimation of how much time the HOT lane would save them?<br />
 &#8211; Do they have an estimation of how much time they would have to stay in their lane if they did not avail themselves of the HOT?<br />
 &#8211; What are their thoughts on the economy? </p>
<p>I think the last one is another issues you may want to explore in future analyses. You said it yourself &#8211; drove less when the country went into recession. Isn&#8217;t it possible that right now, as people hear more stories about slow and steady recovery that their preference may change? I think the idea that the use of HOT is a function of the perception of the driver overall versus a function of the driver&#8217;s perception of traffic has larger implications to future policy development. </p>
<p>All in all though, a well-done analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Dubrule</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11025</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Dubrule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm.  Good point.  However, unlike my disposable car, I think I will probably get back what extra I paid to get a house in Wallingford with a garage &amp; a driveway spot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  Good point.  However, unlike my disposable car, I think I will probably get back what extra I paid to get a house in Wallingford with a garage &amp; a driveway spot.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Williams-Derry</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11022</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Williams-Derry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 04:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, that&#039;s a lot.  Smart of you to tally it all up!  Of course, there might be additional costs too -- e.g., the cost of parking your car at home.  I&#039;ve got a garage, and I assume that the cost for land and construction was built into the purchase price of my house.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that&#8217;s a lot.  Smart of you to tally it all up!  Of course, there might be additional costs too &#8212; e.g., the cost of parking your car at home.  I&#8217;ve got a garage, and I assume that the cost for land and construction was built into the purchase price of my house.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Dubrule</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11019</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Dubrule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recently added up what my car has cost me since I bought it...  I bought a $25,000 Subaru 11 years ago, and counting gas, insurance, taxes, fees, repairs, etc., etc. I&#039;ve paid ~$50,000.  Which is kind of a lot.

This does not include any residual value my car has, were I to try to sell it, but at this point that can&#039;t be much more than $5000 or so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently added up what my car has cost me since I bought it&#8230;  I bought a $25,000 Subaru 11 years ago, and counting gas, insurance, taxes, fees, repairs, etc., etc. I&#8217;ve paid ~$50,000.  Which is kind of a lot.</p>
<p>This does not include any residual value my car has, were I to try to sell it, but at this point that can&#8217;t be much more than $5000 or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Dubrule</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-11018</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Dubrule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-11018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think most drivers don&#039;t think of the cost of driving on a per-trip basis.  In fact, most of them don&#039;t want to think of it at all, but they consider maintenance, gas, insurance, etc. as &quot;committed&quot; costs, mostly immutable.  This is reinforced by the fact that gas tanks carry enough fuel for several trips, so buying gas every week or so is just a fact of life, like your trash-pickup bill.

The only time to consider it is when buying a new vehicle, but external factors (person/cargo capacity, offroad capability, sportiness, towing limit) usually trump gas-mileage and other per-trip costs.

Now that I&#039;m biking/busing (with free employer-provided pass) more,   when I do drive, I am rather conscious of the trip-cost...  30 miles to the arena tonight for my men&#039;s-league hockey playoff = ~ 2.25 gallons of gas @ $4/gal for the good stuff = $10.  The league fee (for ice time, referees, admin, trophies, etc.) works out to about $20/game, but I bet if I asked my teammates why hockey was expensive, not 1 would bring up that 30% of the cost is getting there.

However, while driving is perceived as free, however, tolls, including HOT lane-fees, are not perceived as free; each one is a buying decision.  This leads to the same sort of penny-wise-pound-foolish sort of thinking that has a company buy the cheapest printer paper that causes paper-jams, which results in a $60/hr employee spending their time un-jamming the printer (instead of advancing the interests of the company: double whammy).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most drivers don&#8217;t think of the cost of driving on a per-trip basis.  In fact, most of them don&#8217;t want to think of it at all, but they consider maintenance, gas, insurance, etc. as &#8220;committed&#8221; costs, mostly immutable.  This is reinforced by the fact that gas tanks carry enough fuel for several trips, so buying gas every week or so is just a fact of life, like your trash-pickup bill.</p>
<p>The only time to consider it is when buying a new vehicle, but external factors (person/cargo capacity, offroad capability, sportiness, towing limit) usually trump gas-mileage and other per-trip costs.</p>
<p>Now that I&#8217;m biking/busing (with free employer-provided pass) more,   when I do drive, I am rather conscious of the trip-cost&#8230;  30 miles to the arena tonight for my men&#8217;s-league hockey playoff = ~ 2.25 gallons of gas @ $4/gal for the good stuff = $10.  The league fee (for ice time, referees, admin, trophies, etc.) works out to about $20/game, but I bet if I asked my teammates why hockey was expensive, not 1 would bring up that 30% of the cost is getting there.</p>
<p>However, while driving is perceived as free, however, tolls, including HOT lane-fees, are not perceived as free; each one is a buying decision.  This leads to the same sort of penny-wise-pound-foolish sort of thinking that has a company buy the cheapest printer paper that causes paper-jams, which results in a $60/hr employee spending their time un-jamming the printer (instead of advancing the interests of the company: double whammy).</p>
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		<title>By: David Levinger</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-10991</link>
		<dc:creator>David Levinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 13:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-10991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Drivers are not rational actors.  My work has uncovered that most people dramatically underestimate the amount they spend annually on owning and operating a car.  They tend to think they spend $3,000-4,000/year whereas the inclusive costs of owning, insuring, parking, maintaining, and fueling a car is on the order of $8,000-$10,000. 

Our present transportation system is perpetuated by this incongruity and the irrational economic decisions.  It is a bit amusing to me that highway construction proponents have put so much stock in tolling for financing these projects.  It&#039;s my view along with numerous others (some who have commented above) that if they actually increase the rationality of drivers decisions, highway proponents will actually drive reductions in driving. 

Another take on this:  people have grown accustomed to being comfortable in their cars.  Despite the fact that many people hate congestion, they&#039;ve also adapted to it.  They talk on the phone, listen to the radio, and enjoy the refuge or solitude. Complaining about the traffic however may be more on the order of the weather -- a conversation starter in which people talk about things beyond their control. Paying several bucks to speed up a portion of one&#039;s drive along 167 isn&#039;t going to change the fact that one still has to wait at all the intersections and bottlenecks at the other points on the route.

Nice work Sightline!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drivers are not rational actors.  My work has uncovered that most people dramatically underestimate the amount they spend annually on owning and operating a car.  They tend to think they spend $3,000-4,000/year whereas the inclusive costs of owning, insuring, parking, maintaining, and fueling a car is on the order of $8,000-$10,000. </p>
<p>Our present transportation system is perpetuated by this incongruity and the irrational economic decisions.  It is a bit amusing to me that highway construction proponents have put so much stock in tolling for financing these projects.  It&#8217;s my view along with numerous others (some who have commented above) that if they actually increase the rationality of drivers decisions, highway proponents will actually drive reductions in driving. </p>
<p>Another take on this:  people have grown accustomed to being comfortable in their cars.  Despite the fact that many people hate congestion, they&#8217;ve also adapted to it.  They talk on the phone, listen to the radio, and enjoy the refuge or solitude. Complaining about the traffic however may be more on the order of the weather &#8212; a conversation starter in which people talk about things beyond their control. Paying several bucks to speed up a portion of one&#8217;s drive along 167 isn&#8217;t going to change the fact that one still has to wait at all the intersections and bottlenecks at the other points on the route.</p>
<p>Nice work Sightline!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Popp, Sr.</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-10988</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Popp, Sr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 01:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-10988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Howard and Derry -- great analysis of an otherwise smiley face spin job by WSDOT.  Only fault I find is your conclusion that highways are justified based on what motorists are willing to pay thus wider highways should be rethought. I would agree, however, that future HOT lanes such as the current WSDOT I-405 corridor proposal for HOT lane widening only should be rethought, partly based on what you have observed about willingness to pay. 

FYI highway widenings are primarily justified based on ability to accomodate projected vehicle capacity needs (after other practical modal choices are exhausted) that derive from serving desired regional and subregional land use plans, not from willingness to pay a toll assumption.  Avoidance of future facility peak period breakdown is the primary objective. There are conversions of total person hours of delay to dollars and then cost benefit ratio comparisons between alternatives but these are more in the window dressing department.  

There is an amazing paralell between VMT (vehicle miles of travel) and GDP and most business owners and even some economists get this -- no one wants his customers or his employees (or his downtown) to be accessibilty disadvantaged.  Unfortunately, the state&#039;s elected and many of our regional policy makers do not get this and prefer to seriously constrain future VMT growth, in areas slated for major growth, through legislation currently on the books -- the VMT Reduction Act.  This in turn translates to &quot;system management&quot; with the principal weapon being HOT lanes -- an incredibly blunt weapon that is also highly elitist.  That is why the current I-405 HOT lanes plan will likely be a disaster for the corridor communities and the traveling public.        

Toll projects such as SR 520 corridor widening are of course based on assumptions about willingness to pay and are appropriate ways to pay for very expensive projects.  Fuel taxes and the former Motor Vehicle Excise tax have been excellent low collection cost methods of paying for road improvements, and the public has demonstrated support for hikes in the fuel tax a number of times.  However, the full I-405 master plan will likely require additional assistance through  tolling and that would be least onerous and most effective as a general low cost toll of say $1.

This is a little more than I wanted to say but the economic theorists in this chain touched a sore point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard and Derry &#8212; great analysis of an otherwise smiley face spin job by WSDOT.  Only fault I find is your conclusion that highways are justified based on what motorists are willing to pay thus wider highways should be rethought. I would agree, however, that future HOT lanes such as the current WSDOT I-405 corridor proposal for HOT lane widening only should be rethought, partly based on what you have observed about willingness to pay. </p>
<p>FYI highway widenings are primarily justified based on ability to accomodate projected vehicle capacity needs (after other practical modal choices are exhausted) that derive from serving desired regional and subregional land use plans, not from willingness to pay a toll assumption.  Avoidance of future facility peak period breakdown is the primary objective. There are conversions of total person hours of delay to dollars and then cost benefit ratio comparisons between alternatives but these are more in the window dressing department.  </p>
<p>There is an amazing paralell between VMT (vehicle miles of travel) and GDP and most business owners and even some economists get this &#8212; no one wants his customers or his employees (or his downtown) to be accessibilty disadvantaged.  Unfortunately, the state&#8217;s elected and many of our regional policy makers do not get this and prefer to seriously constrain future VMT growth, in areas slated for major growth, through legislation currently on the books &#8212; the VMT Reduction Act.  This in turn translates to &#8220;system management&#8221; with the principal weapon being HOT lanes &#8212; an incredibly blunt weapon that is also highly elitist.  That is why the current I-405 HOT lanes plan will likely be a disaster for the corridor communities and the traveling public.        </p>
<p>Toll projects such as SR 520 corridor widening are of course based on assumptions about willingness to pay and are appropriate ways to pay for very expensive projects.  Fuel taxes and the former Motor Vehicle Excise tax have been excellent low collection cost methods of paying for road improvements, and the public has demonstrated support for hikes in the fuel tax a number of times.  However, the full I-405 master plan will likely require additional assistance through  tolling and that would be least onerous and most effective as a general low cost toll of say $1.</p>
<p>This is a little more than I wanted to say but the economic theorists in this chain touched a sore point.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie Gardner</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-10984</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 20:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-10984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What I have always found puzzling is the fact that people don&#039;t consider the price of gas when choosing longer routes (either in terms of time or distance) to avoid tolls. You&#039;ve left that out of your calculations as well.

A car traveling at 60 mph getting 30 mpg is spending $7.60 an hour on gas, if gas is priced at $3.80 a gallon. So saving 9 minutes of commute time equals saving $1.14 on gas. And that&#039;s assuming 30 mpg fuel efficiency, which in traffic decreases significantly. 

Paying the $1.75 thus might actually save people money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I have always found puzzling is the fact that people don&#8217;t consider the price of gas when choosing longer routes (either in terms of time or distance) to avoid tolls. You&#8217;ve left that out of your calculations as well.</p>
<p>A car traveling at 60 mph getting 30 mpg is spending $7.60 an hour on gas, if gas is priced at $3.80 a gallon. So saving 9 minutes of commute time equals saving $1.14 on gas. And that&#8217;s assuming 30 mpg fuel efficiency, which in traffic decreases significantly. </p>
<p>Paying the $1.75 thus might actually save people money.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Litman</title>
		<link>http://daily.sightline.org/2012/08/01/how-much-do-drivers-pay-for-a-quicker-commute/#comment-10983</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Litman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 19:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daily.sightline.org/?p=24011#comment-10983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well done, Zachary and Clark. 

This finding is consistent with my study, “Changing Vehicle Travel Price Sensitivities: The Rebounding Rebound Effect (http://www.vtpi.org/VMT_Elasticities.pdf ), forthcoming in the journal Transport Policy, which indicates that automobile travel is much more price sensitive than most transport models assume.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well done, Zachary and Clark. </p>
<p>This finding is consistent with my study, “Changing Vehicle Travel Price Sensitivities: The Rebounding Rebound Effect (<a href="http://www.vtpi.org/VMT_Elasticities.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.vtpi.org/VMT_Elasticities.pdf</a> ), forthcoming in the journal Transport Policy, which indicates that automobile travel is much more price sensitive than most transport models assume.</p>
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